MMP vs. FPTP Debate on TVO

September 29, 2007

Last Thursday’s episode of The Agenda With Steve Paikin on TVO covered MMP vs. FPTP with a live debate at the Munk Centre for International Studies at Trinity College, University of Toronto.

On the pro-MMP Side

• Rick Anderson – the chair of the Vote for MMP campaign.
• Marilyn Churley – former Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations and Registrar General in the Ontario NDP government from 1990-1995. She served as a New Democratic Member of Provincial Parliament for 15 years and two years as a Toronto City Councilor.
• Dennis Pilon – professor of Political Science at the University of Victoria.

On the anti-MMP Side

• Sheila Copps – columnist with Sun Media. She is a former Liberal MP, deputy prime minister and minister of the environment.
• David Fleet – director of the No MMP campaign.

There was a post-show video chat with featuring the guests taking viewer questions.

Previously The Agenda With Steve Paikin’s Election Battle Blog had a debate been bloggers.

Update: October 5, 2007

This episode of The Agenda with Steve Paikin covering the debate will be rebroadcasted on Monday 08 October 2007 8:00 PM


A Political Science Case Against MMP

September 29, 2007

Three political science professors, Peter Woolstencroft at the University of Waterloo, Rob Leone at Wilfrid Laurier University and Mark Yaniszewski at the University of Western Ontario have an editorial in the National Post arguing that MMP will only create more problems in how governments are formed and parties interact.

Proportionality will mean the end of majority governments and create a legislature composed of many parties preoccupied with power-bargaining and gaining short-term advantage. Parties will find it hard to plan.
Consider the threshold for the election of party-list MPPs. A party needs 3% of the total vote to win a seat, a threshold at the low end of the range for MMP systems: most are at 5%. In such a diverse and large province as Ontario, this creates an incentive for people to form new parties to advance their interests. Political entrepreneurs will see that they can win seats without making a heavy effort to appeal to many voters. A multi-party legislature means that small and single-issue parties will be more important than their voting strength would otherwise warrant. The minority governments of the future will be much different from the ones of the past.

They express concern about the selection of list candidates:

In terms of promoting diversity, there are two fatal flaws in the party-list idea. First, where people are placed on the list is crucial: placed first means election, last means defeat. So, having 30 women on the list is meaningless if the top nine are men.
Second, Ontario is one constituency for the party-list candidates; parties are not required to list people from Ontario’s various regions. It is entirely possible for most party-list MPPs to hail from one region.

Finally they oppose change arguing that Ontarians simply have not enough time to understand the issue and be consulted about it.


The Great Debate: Toronto Edition – Part 1

September 29, 2007

The Great Referendum Debate: Toronto Edition organized by The Centre for the Study of Democracy at Queen’s University was held yesterday, September 28, 2007 at the MaRS Complex in downtown Toronto.
For MMP were:

  • Andrew Coyne – National Post political affairs columnist
  • Marilyn Churley – former NDP provincial cabinet minister, nominated NDP for next federal election

Against MMP were:

  • Christina Blizzard – Toronto Sun Queen’s Park columnist
  • Charles Harnick – former PC provincial cabinet minister

Moderated by Tom Axworthy with introductory remarks by George Thomson, Chair of the Ontario Citizens’ Assembly.

The proceedings were taped by CPAC for later broadcast. Check local listings…

George Thomson initially spoke on the selection of the Ontario Citizens’ Assembly and the depth of study of the various alternative systems they looked at. He agreed with a common theme throughout the evening, too few people knew about the referendum or about MMP. He specifically criticized the rules that Elections Ontario’s education campaign was operating under – informing people that the referendum was occurring but not the pros and cons of MMP.

Following Thomson the moderator gave each speaker ten minutes to speak. This post gives my take on their positions. Part 2 will cover their answers to the moderator’s questions and questions from the floor.

Read the rest of this entry »


Radwanski On Lack of Public Awareness

September 28, 2007

Adam Radwanski who is a member of the Globe and Mail’s editorial board and former managing editor of Macleans.ca looks at why people on both sides of the referendum believe that the government wants the other side to win:

Those in favour of the mixed-member proportional (MMP) system are convinced that the Liberals, having promised to bring it forward but unenthused by the prospect of it actually coming to pass, have deliberately doomed the reforms by tacking the referendum onto a provincial election that completely overshadows it. Those against MMP are equally convinced that the province’s entire political system is about to be overhauled by stealth – that something Ontarians otherwise wouldn’t vote for might slide through because the seriousness of it is being undersold.

Radwanski thinks the former is more likely and is very concerned that a possible change to MMP may occur without the public fully understanding what is happening:

Whether Liberal or Conservative, the next government will be overwhelmingly similar to the one we’ve had the last four years. But adopting MMP, with its likely stream of minority governments and its end to the domination by the two major parties, would radically change the way the province is run.
It’s completely irresponsible to be settling that question in this way. It’s not just people actively on one side or the other who should be peeved; it’s everyone else being denied a proper debate that allows them to form their own opinions.


Globe And Mail to Host Online Forum with Ontario Deputy Chief Electoral Officer

September 28, 2007

The Globe and Mail will have an online Q&A with Ontario Deputy Chief Electoral Officer Loren A. Wells today from 1-2 p.m. See their announcement for details on submitting a question.


Toronto Star Says Elections Ontario Should Expand Education Campaign

September 26, 2007

The Toronto Star has an editorial decrying the lack of public knowledge about the referendum and calls upon Elections Ontario to request an expanded budget to beef up its education campaign.

The editorial also present information about the question, and the proposed MMP system.


Another Conservative Case For MMP

September 23, 2007

The National Post political affairs columnist Andrew Coyne will be one of the speakers for the MMP side at the MaRS complex debate on Thursday, September 27th. In a column he describes why conservatives should support proportional representation in order to get away from the “winner take all” nature of Canadian politics that pushes all major parties to the centre. With MMP, parties will take more chances including that of promoting genuine conservative principles.

Update: September 27

Coyne expands his case against FPTP, focusing on false majorities and wasted votes:

Consider some of the results of recent elections. In Ontario, an NDP government was elected in 2000 with 37% of the vote. In British Columbia, the NDP won a majority of the seats in the 1996 election though it received less than 40% of the vote — not merely fewer than a majority, but fewer than its nearest rivals, the Liberals.

These are hardly unusual. In 26 federal elections since 1921, there have been 16 majority governments elected, but only two that actually commanded a majority of the vote. The rest were minorities posing as majorities, wielding undivided power though as many as five voters in eight voted against them. Supporters of the status quo cite its tendency to produce stable majority governments. But these aren’t majority governments. They’re legalized coup d’etats.

False majorities are but one of the distortions to which the present system gives rise. It is not unknown in this country for one party to take all or nearly all of the seats in the house, with 60% or less of the popular vote — as happened in B.C. in 2001, and New Brunswick in 1987. The 40% of the public or more who voted for other parties, with other philosophies, were effectively disenfranchised: entitled to vote, but not to representation, which alone gives votes meaning.

Update September 29, 2007

Coyne has another column defending MMP against the claim that it would lead of fringe parties holding the major parties hostage for their support. He notes:

Germany and New Zealand both use MMP. Their parliaments typically produce between four and eight parties, none of them extremist, with two large centrist parties as anchors. The same pattern is observed in other PR countries: Ireland, Australia, Norway, Sweden and Denmark all currently have seven parties in their legislatures.

It’s true that these systems do not typically produce one-party majority governments. Rather, they tend to be led by multi-party majorities: stable coalitions, that is, which together command the support of a majority of the legislature — and, unlike the current system, a majority of the voters. We associate this sort of government with instability only because of the incentives under FPTP, which encourage parties to trigger an election at the first spike in the polls, betting that a 2% rise in support can translate into a bushel of extra seats. Under PR, there’s no such payoff.

As for the prospect of extremist hijackings, that is supported neither by experience nor common sense, depending as it does on a number of increasingly unlikely conditions: that the extremist party has just enough seats to hold the balance of power; that none of the larger parties’ members break ranks, but rigidly vote the party line; that, likewise, the mainstream parties are incapable of voting with one another to defeat the extremists; and, most importantly, that none of the parties, large or small, pays any price for their behaviour with the electorate.

Update: October 3, 2007

In Part 3 of his defense of MMP Coyne discusses why proportional representation works, making every vote count:

Proportional representation, on the other hand, makes every vote count, and every vote equal. As such it ensures majority governments really do represent a majority, whether under one party’s banner or in coalitions. It opens up the political market to new competitors, and encourages parties to compete in healthier ways: by the earned increments of persuasion, rather than winner-take-all bets on split votes and other vagaries of the current system.

The party lists for list MPPs could be full of hacks, but as not if the party hoped to win the election:
Second response: Why would the parties do this? Why would they commit electoral suicide? Why would their members let them? It’s one thing to impose your hand-picked lackey on some poor riding association somewhere, amid the hurly-burly of a general election. It’s quite another to post an entire slate of ward-heelers and log-rollers to represent the party –in the shop window, as it were, where everyone could have a good look at them.


National Post Takes Readers’ Questions

September 22, 2007

Electoral reform expert Peter MacLeod, a fellow at the Queen’s University Centre for the Study of Democracy and principal of public systems design studio The Planning Desk answers the first set of reader questions as part of the National Post’s MMP coverage.


Debates and Panels in Toronto Next Week

September 22, 2007

Liberals For MMP have word of three events on MMP in Toronto next week:

  • Thursday, September 27, 2007 – A panel on MMP at York University in Toronto entitled ‘Change The System: A panel on MMP’  – 1-3pm The Tribute Communities Recital Hall, 112 Accolade East
  • Thursday, September 27, 2007 – A panel on MMP at University of Toronto sponsored by the University of Toronto Student Union for MMP (via a comment to the posting) – Note: I’m unable to find more details on this.  There is a UofT event on October 3rd. Maybe this event was rescheduled.
  • Friday September 28, 2007 – A debate at the MaRS Complex at 101 College Street in Toronto  at 7pm sponsored by The Centre for the Study of Democracy at Queen’s University

Update:

More debates and panels:

  • October 3, 2007 – 3 p.m. – 5 p.m., Deciding How Ontario MPPs are Elected: What Will You Do? A Roundtable On Electoral Reform
     University of Toronto St. George Campus, Canadiana Building, 14 Queen’s Park Crescent West, 1st floor
    Join a roundtable discussion of these and other issues with:
    - Professor Emeritus Peter Hogg, Scholar-in-residence, Blake Cassels and Graydon LLP
    - Senator Hugh Segal, Parliament of Canada
    - Professor Andrew Stark, Joseph L. Rotman School of Management, U of T
    - Professor Melissa Williams, Director, Centre for Ethics, U of T
  • October 4, 2007 – School of Policy Studies, Room 202, Queen’s University Thursday October 4, 12:00 – 1:15 pm sponsored by The Centre for the Study of Democracy at Queen’s University

More details to come..


People Still Unsure of What is MMP

September 20, 2007

The National Post has an article suggesting that much work still needs to be done to educate the voters on what is MMP. The article notes the task facing Elections Ontario:

Brad Hutchinson, one of 107 referendum “resource officers” hired to get word out about the referendum, visited the Goodyear Toastmasters club in Etobicoke last Thursday to explain MMP. He tells the small crowd he wore a grey shirt and tie to appear neutral; they laugh. As his presentation wore on, it was clear the topic had left the accomplished speakers so befuddled, they were almost speechless.

Maybe they started too late:

As the discussion wears on, the Toastmasters are surprised that with less than one month before the referendum vote on Oct. 10, the details are just beginning to reach them.
“The first I saw was the pamphlet that came in the mail today,” Mr. Zary says. “And I want to know more.”
“The majority of people don’t know it’s going on,” another member adds.
“But maybe it’s not meant to go through,” another pipes up.